Cincinnati Reds nearly no

A scoring change in the 3rd inning almost made history as a Nick Senzel infield hit was changed to an error and Alex Cobb didn’t give up another one until there were two outs in the 9th inning. Spencer Steer’s RBI double wound up being the sole hit of the game for Cincinnati as the Reds lost 6-1 to the San Francisco Giants on Tuesday night.

The Giants went down in order in the 1st inning, but they got through against Brandon Williamson in the 2nd. Back-to-back singles from Patrick Bailey and J.D. Davis put runners on the corners with one out and that led to a run scoring when Williamson balked as he attempted to pick off Davis. Luis Matos would add another run when he doubled into right field to bring Davis around and put San Francisco up 2-0.

Things got worse for Cincinnati and Brandon Williamson in the bottom of the 3rd. Austin Slater led off with a double and then he’d score on a wild pitch. Mitch Haniger then reached on a throwing error to extend the inning. That led to Patrick Bailey getting an opportunity to hit and he did just that, slugging a 2-run homer that snowconed it’s way out of TJ Friedl’s glove as he leapt at the wall and came out of his glove as he collided with the wall (it was going to be a home run if Friedl never touched the ball).

All the while, Cincinnati had just one hit. Until they didn’t. Nick Senzel’s infield single in the top of the third inning was changed to an error the following inning and put the game into no-hit watch territory as Alex Cobb just kept putting up zeroes. With two outs in the top of the 8th inning Will Benson hit a flare into shallow center and Austin Slater made a full out diving effort and caught the ball. The Reds challenged the play but it was upheld as a catch to keep the no-hitter alive.

The Giants would tack on a run in the bottom of the 8th to make it 6-0, but that wasn’t the story. Alex Cobb returned to the mound with 112 pitches and a no-hitter. Noelvi Marte flew out on the first pitch he saw. Nick Senzel was more patient and it paid off as he walked on five pitches. That brought TJ Friedl to the plate. He fouled off a 1-1 pitch that was just foul before flying out to right field. Spencer Steer came to the plate as the last hope for the Reds. With Cobb at 123 pitches – the most he’s ever had in his career – he served up a splitter that caught too much of the plate and Steer lined a double over the right fielders head to bring in Senzel to break up both the no-hitter and the shutout. That would be all for the Reds as they dropped their third straight and five of their last six games.

Noelvi Marte’s throwing error in the 3rd inning that extended the frame and led to a 2-run homer that turned a 3-run game into a 5-run game.

There’s not a whole lot to note here. The Reds were no-hit through 8.2 innings. That’s the note.

Cincinnati Reds vs San Francisco Giants

Wednesday August 30th, 3:45pm ET

Hunter Greene (2-6, 5.06 ERA) vs Logan Webb (9-10, 3.51 ERA)

Doug Gray is the owner of RedsMinorLeagues.com, Redleg Nation, and as you guessed it, passionate about the great sport of baseball. He's been writing about baseball since 2006 (contributions formerly at The Athletic and currently at Baseball America). You can keep tabs with him on twitter @dougdirt24.

“There’s not a whole lot to note here. The Reds were no-hit through 8.2 innings. That’s the note.”

That’s noteworthy. 🙂

“This won’t change who we are!”

“It’s important to continue to play like that, and that’s not going to change” manager David Bell said.

Sickening how the Reds are celebrating how they sure “showed” Cobb! We broke up his no hitter! Pathetic.

Bally Sports Cincinnati@BallySportsCIN

David Bell gave credit to Giants starter Alex Cobb, who “was in total command” tonight. The @Reds skipper also talked up Spencer Steer for breaking up the no-hitter in a big moment.

Sad, sickening and pathetic. I sure wish someone in the organization, starting with Bell, could possibly express one iota of disappointment with the Reds performance. Instead we just get this drivel about how it’s all okay, everything is fine, we’ll go get ‘em tomorrow. It’s insulting to knowledgeable fans who know better. Bell doesn’t have to throw players under the bus. Just please semi-politely acknowledge what our own eyes can see. Something like this: “injuries have really taken their toll (not an excuse), we’re not hitting, we’ve lost our plate discipline, too many Mr talk errors in the field, poor defense. We’ve gotta them all this around quick or our hopes of squeaking into the playoffs are over!”

Instead, we’ll get Bell in near future robotically going off on umps to show everyone he gives a you know what. It’s a sad display.

We fans have the right to be frustrated for many reasons. And yes, we’re all happy with they made baseball fun in Cincinnati for awhile this year. Yes, there’s hope for the future. But for goodness sake, allow us to be angry about this collapse and show us, just a little, that you are as well, Reds organization!

Yes, this nonchalance about the situation and seeming inability to acknowledge problems and put in a plan for change makes me lose respect for the organization and David Bell. There is still great potential but a team which operates with “no concern” and celebrates every little accomplishment as “exceeding expectations” is destined to go nowhere very slowly.

Perfectly said. I think that being “negative” with this team is a thin line because we all see the potential. If they would not have extended Bell the entire outlook would be different and it would be a little easier to forget about the collapse and keep an eye on the future. Instead alot of us can see that noone is serious about winning in that front office. I call the David Bell era the Marvin Lewis era, the era of mediocrity. Talent will come and go yet mediocrity will never escape us. Nothing in todays professional sports is worse than mediocrity.

You know Doug had that headline prepared as, “Cincinnati Reds No-hit In 6-0 Loss To The Giants”. Had to add “nearly” and replace the zero with a one at the last minute. Thank Spencer Steer!

They sure are painfully bad right now. The injuries have really taken a toll. And the young guys seem to be gasping for air on the final stretches of the long MLB season.

I went out and found a picture of Alex Cobb, edited it, and had it all ready to go. THANKS SPENCER

the fact that Elly has absolutely no clue at the plate right now….he looks like a “project” player getting at-bats to play out the string at the end of the season

RLN would be hammering and DB would not be playing Barrero for the same plate discipline.

Yeah but ELDC was the talk of baseball and put butts in the seats and theat where its different.Reds played Newman over Barrero yeah Newman over Barrero and the rest is history.Barrero is done playing for the Reds.Sent him down and has played most of his games at short so you can see where they value him.Reds anoint some and throw others under the bus and they are down to ELDC right now on the big club that can actually play the position.I guess Lopez can play it if the need comes up.

Marte is your current primary backup to De La Cruz at SS. Steer and Senzel can play it in a pinch along with Lopez.

Only eight Ks tonight. Improvement. 🙂

Maybe time to send Marte back down to AAA and see what Barrero can do for the last month. Don’t think Marte was ready when they called him up.

again, i think the pitching is good enough for the reds to be competitive.

the reds have two types of position players it seems. And this seems to have been the case for the 2.5 decades

1. the real athletic guys (“high ceiling players”) that may start out ok but once the league “figures them out”, really have trouble making contact (Hamilton, Aquino)

2. the guys that have a decent hit tool but just can’t stay healthy ( Winker)

We either aren’t drafting the right type of player or not developing them.

I also had another theory. I live and Indiana now and I like to drive around a lot. I rarely (if ever) see any kids playing baseball. It is mainly football and soccer (and of course basketball being the hoosier state). But it makes me think that probably the best athletes, the strongest, fastest, toughest kids , are not playing baseball anymore (especially in this country). This certainly wasn’t the case when i was growing up or even in the 70’s , 80’s and 90’s. I think it just makes it harder for teams like the reds to “get it right” when they are drafting a player. Just less talent to pull from.

I know I am rambling but just seems strange that we have had so much trouble developing players that can hit can run fast, can play defense AND are durable.

Hamilton was never a great hitter at any level.

Reds have just 11 hits over the last three games. They have hit rock bottom and are starting to dig…

Hitting is face-planting past 3+ weeks. Ever since that Braves series, that was very exciting, the adrenaline has worn off and the young hitters (and old) suddenly can’t maintain even .700 OPS.

Good darn thing Krall did NOT make an impulsive SP trade in July. I can’t see any way that would have move the needle enough to overcome rotation injuries and hitting taking a giant K nosedive into what we’re used to around Cincy. 0-4, 2 or 3 Ks.

OS has said it many times and its true.This team is not one player away it is several players away from contending for a world series title.They have the prospects and if Krall gets the money to spend then well look out.Right now we just set back and play it out and sort through pieces that may or may not be part of the future.We have some already but need more of course.Young team that needs to do individually what they need to do to get better and coaches to help them.Krall must insist on both happening.

Finally some sanity here. The Reds this year were never as good as their record indicated. This is a team that is overachieving their pythag record by 4-5 gamers and now they are regressing to what they really are. Add in the fact that almost every starting position player has a lower xwOBA than their actaul wOBA, the Reds are probably even worse then their pythag record.

The spate of injuries didn’t help but the thought that this team was maybe a starting pitcher away from contending is ludicrous. Krall was correct in not making any major trades at the deadline.

@citizen54 If Krall had made a deal(s) for player with noteworthy xOBAs (whatever that is) would you have approved?

The team is in first place at the deadline and the GM does next to nothing to reinforce the roster?!

This is Walt Jocketty’s modus operandi. What is the common denominator…Bob Castellini, principal owner and author of “WE KNOW HOW IT IS DONE” epistle.

Y’all keep drinking Bob’s kool-aid.

HOPEFULLY this 2023 season is the medicine that allows these young hitters/fielders to get over that initial tough stretch and growing pains. Hopefully, they take this embarrassment at the plate as fuel for off-season workouts and planning.

With the low payroll (no excuses now Castellini family and co-owners) and promising, but VERY humbled youth movement (better be humbled), the Reds GM should be allowed to pursue some above average SP or two and maybe one “put’s the ball in play routinely” vet hitter. I am cautiously optimistic, but if the off-season brings bargains shopping and signing a career 5.00 ERA pitcher for 2yr/$18mil as their big acquisition, 2024 will be over before it begins. The stands will be mostly empty and SHOULD be.

Time to put up or shut up Castellini and Co ownership. Stop blaming fans. I know you already have $billion plus asset and probably don’t care that we’re feeling letdown. Hey, horrible on-field product can be overcome with a few pallets of bobble-heads, right? Shame on fans for taking those pieces of trash that end up in landfills. Actually, shame on fans for going to the games, or watching local broadcasts and lining your pockets.

Rant off.

A turnaround/wrap up win today, to end the road trip that started so well, would make it 5-5. The pressure to perform along with travel are two key factors of professional sports. Not much time for the Reds to rest up for the upcoming 10 game homestand with the Cubs, Mariners and Cards.

It was fun while it lasted.

Reds right now with all the injuries are a pretty bad team. Closer to a 100 loss team than a playoff contender. Hopefully they claim Giolito or Clevinger or some of the quality players that have been waived would be clear improvements over what we are running out there right now. Not holding my breath though knowing this team

RedBB, I agree. They need to claim Giolito and Lopez if they make it to them.

Yes, the next 48 hours should be interesting from a fan and playoff perspective. With the team with the worst record getting first dibs, the Reds should just about get anybody they want. Possible exception being the Marlins. And everything is for free!

Fans talk about a starting pitcher to help Abbott and the bullpen, well here is the opportunity and there is a couple good ones out there including Krall’s favorite Giolitto. I think we also ought to grab Bader who is a gold glove CF with more bat and speed than Senzel or Friedl.

Also will be interesting to see who our competition …..Cubs, Dbacks, Giants, and Brewers target to enhance their chances. Remember under the rules, anybody they grab has to be somebody the Reds passed on. This is a GMs ultimate test of evaluation skills. Everything is free except the roster spot. But we have about 4-5 offensive players who would be better served in Louisville……as we all know.

A final test for Krall’s “we have enough”.

Well stated!

Agreed! Could make the last month very interesting indeed!

The Reds are not going to claim any of these players off waivers for several reasons…

1. “everything is for free” is not the case at all. Adding a player would cost the Reds someone off both rosters…26-man and 40-man, and as the trade deadline proved they are simply not going to do that.

2. These players are free agents at the end of this season. They would be pure rentals with no guarentee of them re-signing. Plus claiming them on waivers would cost the Reds the remainder of their 2023 salary.

3. To be honest, it is too late now. Any chance of the Reds being competitive is gone. The ship has sailed.

Good, Bad, My Best Good = Technically they are still in the wild card race = 11/2 behind D-backs, 2 behind Giants and 3 behind Cubs Bad = We all already know today will be as bad or worse than the last 2 games My best = Penn State vs West Virginia Saturday

Marte’s at bat summed up the Reds hitters in a nutshell. Cobb is over 100 pitches and going for a no hitter. Marte swings at first pitch instead of making him work that tired arm. The boys have alot to learn and hopefully this off season they do. It’s been a great summer. I think I predicted 85 wins but that’s only because I refuse to lose. Would like to see them get hot but I don’t see it. To many guys struggling and McLain is out and arms are tired. I will say as frustrating as the kids are at times, I’ll take that over watching old veteran has beens just playing it out and collecting a check.

If this collapse continues, it will be interesting to see how the Reds finish out the the last 2-3 weeks. Try to win and makeup lost ground? Spring Training Part 2? Role of the old, free agent like guys including Maile, Votto, Newman, etc. ?

Marte is simply not ready and I’ve been a big fan of his. It was super perplexing when Bell flat-out named him a starter before he even played. Would rather have Mancini, Barrero, Reynolds, Dunn or Hurtubise on this team over him right now

Marte is our #1 prospect. What Bell did was not perplexing. In fact, most would have complained if Bell didn’t make Marte a starter when he was called up.

We have four regular position players on the IL. Marte should be starting or sent down. We should not be sitting on our bench.

Many here also wanted Hopkins and Ramos and Lopez. and others up. Now it’s Mancini, and Lopez.Maybe they will eventually learn that AAAA ballplayers are just that.

I’ll watch today, but my heart really isn’t in it. So many shades of 2021 where I almost went to Cincy to see a couple games, but scrapped the trip due to the collapse. Glad I did the DC trip during the hot streak a couple months ago.

Could be a long winter, friends. And we have 3 years more of HDTBell and no clear indication the BobPhil Monster will sell to somebody who gives a white rat’s @$$.

The Angels have placed several players on waivers. Talk about giving up…………

It’s a smart move IMO. I mean…what do you have to gain by keeping them? No chance at the playoffs and all are free agents next year. Might as well try to save a few million that can go towards next year or Ohtani. Maybe even get a couple lower level prospects. You’ll see more and more of this in the future IMO now that the Angels have broken the seal.

Their waiver roster is quite significant to say the least. Makes you wonder who will take a flyer on some of them to make their September push.

This is what a team looks like that’s just playing out the schedule. What a waste of a season.

While the outcome was likely never in doubt, Williamson deserved better defense behind him. There were 4 batted balls that shoulda/coulda been caught:—the 2 balls to Senzel. In both cases he took poor routes. 1 of the 2 should have been caught by a more instinctual outfielder.–Marte’s throwing error.–Tyler Stephenson giving up on the popup next to the dugout so CES has to make a last second stab which he dropped. A more authoritative catcher wouldn’t give up on a ball that easily.

Maybe the Reds can salvage the getaway game today and hopefully come home with a bevy of pitching reinforcements waiting for them……a force restart for the stretch run.

If the Reds pass on Clevinger/Moore/Lopez it will tell you everything you need to know about the level of motivation (and frankly, greed) of the Castellini’s. The message in the clubhouse will be understood loud and clear. And worse, you’d basically be allowing the teams you’re trying to leapfrog to get better. Seems like an imperative to me.

Williamson really battled last night after a rough start and actually ended ups with a QS. That’s great quality to see from a starting pitcher. Ashcraft has that battling bulldog mentality too. Compare that to Hunter Greene who in his last 2 starts also struggled early but couldn’t battle thru it and just continued to struggle and actually got worse. Food for thought…

Agree with you on the OF play. When I saw Senzel was in RF I was concerned about that. Whether Fairchild was in the doghouse over his role in the miscommunication between himself and Friedl Monday or was physically unable to go, playing Senzel in that large and irregular RF seemed inevitable to lead to even more issues out there. If Benson wasn’t a better choice in RF than Senzel who plays RF if Steer is moved back to OF by the arrival of Alejo Lopez?

Good point. Benson was the more logical choice to play RF. LF in that ballpark is far easier, so you put your relatively worst defender there.

Curious that Lopez and not Barrero gets the callup given Barrero’s ability to play infield and outfield at a high level.

@Sultan>>> Ironically, Tuesday may have been the night to use Siani in RF but of course, he was already announced as the send down for Lopez who if he had even arrived wasn’t used in the game.

That whole Lopez sequence struck me as strange. Was Lopez physically present? If not, why was the corresponding move announced before he was?

Senzel didn’t exactly missplay a ball that was over his head that was at least 10 feet up on the wall. Benson is awful in the outfield, and can’t go back on balls.There was no miscommunication with Fairchild, and Friedl. TJ was shaded in left. Stu took a bad route, then pulled up, only to see TJ was10-15 feet away.

The ball Senzel misplayed was the high fly that landed on the warning track in the corner. He was late getting into his route` and then ran a route that was too shallow.

On the ball off the wall, he ran up too close to the wall, misread the rebound, and let the ball get past him which cost a chance to hold the guy to a long single because of how quickly the ball had reached the wall. Freidl saved it from being a triple.

On Monday in the Freidl/ Fairchild mess, as the CF and man in charge, wasn’t Friedl’s route about equally grievous as Fairchild’s? They both were able to catch the ball rather routinely and yet neither made a legitimate effort to play it. Instead, both ran a route that indicated they thought the other man was going to catch it. To me that’s miscommunication.

Only they (and hopefully the OF coach) know what went down between them in terms of communication to avoid repetition in the future.

Let’s see if I can predict the future regarding waivers.

“With the way the team has been performing we felt like there was no reason to make a claim this year. We are setting ourselves up for next year and the future”.

Behind closed doors “hopefully they buy that and we can worry about what to say next year when the time comes”.

At what point does the local media stop being a shill for ownership and call out this team and FO for what it is right now: A complete train wreck.

Because the FO is the exact opposite of a train wreck. They are executing a plan and have the best hoard of young players/prospects in baseball. This FO is one of the best in baseball.

This year was all about getting the yutes experience and a ML cup of coffee for some. Along the way, several of them overperformed and made a run in a season in which they were not supposed to run at all.

Considering the draft, scouting, & trades, no FO has done better than the Reds in the last couple years. NONE.

“..several of them overperformed and made a run in a season in which they were not supposed to run at all…”

And this mindset is exactly why the FO is out of step and falling short. 1st place in the division and solidly in the wild card seeding on deadline day and instead of supporting the effort and advancing the plan, without dumping it, the FO wrang its hands and did nothing.

You gotta be kidding me dude !!! Have you really been paying attention to thisorganization for the last several years …Executing a plan ???? What plan …. They have no plan – status quo …. extended Bell 3 more years – one of the worst managers in the game , no trades to improvesituation at deadline …. Nothing changes !

True. The more the youngsters struggle, the harder they press, and it becomes never ending cycle. My question and I’m sure many others is David Bell capable of righting the ship? It’s not his fault that they are pressing but somehow they must snap out of this. My guess is they will once they are clearly out of the playoff run. It’s very sad for the average fan.

One of my biggest problems with David Bell is that he has never been a winner as far as managing goes. Does he even know how to steer the ship away from icebergs? If Terry Francona does leave Cleveland, is there any way in the world that they could convince him to come to Cincinnati? In my opinion, he may very well be the perfect man for the job. A proven winner and probably a greater value than any of the free agents that I can think of.

The lack of trades at the deadline, are a red herring. Please name the free agent(s) that you think should’ve came to Cincinnati and let’s look at what it cost the acquiring team. Otherwise for the love of God, please let it be. There is no way in the world one or two or even three or four players would’ve made a difference at this point. The team is in meltdown it’s not that they’re not inspired to play good baseball, but are pressing mightily. You can see the look on their face is that they are highly stressed trying to be successful. To insinuate that is a lack of effort is absurd.

Red herring ????? They did nothing , absolutely nothing …..it’s not absurd , this is how they have operated !!!!! Come on … you gonna sit there and say that maybe one or 2 pitching additions wouldn’t have made a difference …… we won’t ever know now will we

@redalert. I hear youname some names. We are listening… otherwise, it’s just empty words.

Not empty words at all … I don’t have to name any names Pete – that’s the job of the front office … been a Red’s fan all my life and THIS is how they operate … and until that changes , I will hold firm to this belief . You have your own option of this and that’s fine … I respect it but don’t agree with it

… opinion , not option

All the Hype is Banana Bob’s burner account

Trading away 2 guys who are having Cy Young seasons along with letting Wade Miley walk for nothing. Yes we got talent, but lets not act like we didnt have to trade away ALOT of talent to get it. One can argue if those trades were never made we could be preparing for the playoffs. Castillo, Gray and Wade Miley sure would have made a difference. The front office extending a manager who has one of the worst August and September records in team history tells alot as well. On top of that, he has a losing record after 4.75 seasons and is on his third contract here. Managers less than a year after losing 100 games typically don’t get 3 yr extensions after 3 mos into the next season. There may be a plan, but the track record of those executing it does not warrant benefit of the doubt. I want to be wrong really badly by the way.

Here are the cricket chirps 😉 First off it is not our place to know who is available or what a team wants for them. If it was, we’d have a job like Nick Krall has instead of commenting on a blog.

What we do know is that the Brewers, Cubs, and Phillies all made deals that have propelled them to solidify their spots since the deadline. The Cubs in particular were in a situation very similar to the Reds. Some folks thought coming into the season they were even further away from contending than the Reds. Unless something makes the Reds total outliers, deals were there for teams who were willing to make them.

We also know that Krall talked after the deadline about being unwilling to take rentals and unable to get a deal that was going to help the Reds for several years unless he gave up prospects he wasn’t willing to part with. The unsaid here is that rentals actually often cost less in talent because they involve taking on salary. So, what Krall was inferring was he did not have or was not willing to spend cash dollars to get a rental. Real world for instance is Michael Lorenzen who went for a single 20 year old prospect playing at A+ but brought with him $2.67M in remaining salary.

And there were other avenues they could have pursued. For instance, virtually every organization has its 4A organizational depth guys like Kennedy and Lively have been for the Reds this year. Most of these guys are on MiLB contracts and will be MiLB free agents at end of the season. The Reds could have worked this market to mine some arms that could have helped with the starting pitching situation or saved their better relievers for leverage situations.

@. Jim…

your argument fails because you are assuming going into the trade deadline, the Brewers, Cubs,Phils, and Reds were roster equals and what the moves those 3 teams made is the difference.

First off, Phillies are defending NL champs. They have Harper,Castellanos,Trey Turner,Schwarber,JT REalmuto at C, a loaded bullpen, and a big 3 of Zach wheeler, Aaron Nola, and at Juan Walker. Phillies were 1 guy away. Reds arent

Cubs roster is similarly far superior to the Reds roster. Ian happ, Dansby Swanson, Cody Bellinger, Nico Hoerner,Yan Gomes, Patrick Wisdom, Tauchman. they are good. not to mention they have Cy young candidate Justin Steele 15-3, Stroman, Hendricks and others

Brewers have defending Cy young, loaded starting pitching, dominant bullpen and smacked the reds head to head.

Roster wise, reds arent remotely close to being 1 0r 2 players away from the Phillies, cubs, or Brewers top to bottom

OS> At the deadline the Reds were ahead of both the Brewers and Cubs. The failure of pitching has cost them a minimum of 5 games so far in August. That is the reality despite the rosters on paper.

The Reds chose NOT to bolster their pitching at the deadline and have paid the price.

It turns out that at least in the short run, Martini can offensively cover one of the LH batting spots held by Fraley and Votto. Martini had played well all year at AAA yet they waited 2-3 weeks after Fraley went down to get him up to MLB. And the Reds paid a price for this too.

The Reds mishandled the India injury situation and paid a price.

The behavior of the FO has made this Reds team less than what it was proving on the field it was. The growth was stunted in the bud.

Red Alert. They did not do nothing. They traded for a pitcher who has been productive here. They did not give up any of their high end prospects, but they did trade away a guy with break out potential.

It’s not factual to say they did nothing or even to say they did nothing significant m, because they did.

Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of advance stats could have told you that the Reds were overperforming their record. All you needed to look at was run differential, which isn’t even an advanced stat, where even when they were in first place it was hovering around -15 to -20. Ya the Reds were in first place for a short time but the Reds’ record was a mirage.

The FO knew this which is why they did not make any major moves. The only ones disappointed right now are the fans that didn’t know any better.

Krall – “We’re not here to build a great farm system. We’re here to win”.

Yeeeah

@Pete even Tito had rough spots early in his managerial career.

At what point do people on this forum q stop being a shill for ownership?

I am not a shill for ownership, but I fully support not making any more trades than the one they made at the deadline. I can see what I think is an actual plan by Nick Krall to win and win a lot in the next 10 years or so.

However, a big part of that plan involves targeted spending of about $50 million a year spending over the next 2 to 4 years on free agents… ië 1 upper tier outfielder or starting pitcher and 1 or 2 upper tier bullpen arms.

In my opinion, if that or something similar doesn’t happen this winter, I will begin to agree with a lot of the critisism that appears daily on this board. I believe NK needed this time too accumulate talent and to clear the books of the many bad spending decisions made in the last 20 years.

As far as the David Bell extension, I don’t really understand it. Maybe if given an actual contender, he will do well. He has not had that in the time he’s been here.

@Pete> We fundamentally disagree about the action/ inaction of the FO at the deadline. However, I view the inaction of the FO at the deadline as a major step in bringing the team to where it is now, looking beaten down and left for dead.

How do we measure the emotional toll of seeing (at least) 5 games lost in August due to a late bullpen meltdown? What damage was done emotionally by seeing the bullpen use determined by the need to support the next day’s starter being placed ahead of winning the close game at hand that the position guys have busted their butts to be in what should have been a winning situation?

sorry, somehow this dropped a thread when it was published.

@jim. As you say, we fundamentally disagree. I don’t think the lack of trades has one little bit to do with this meltdown we are seeing. I think it has 100% to do with young guys struggling and the more they struggle the more they press. It’s old as baseball itself.

Now, David Bell is not the man to right the ship. I think nearly all of us agree on that. And I am willing to say Nick has got to go if this was his decision. It is the greatest blunder in Reds history since the Robinson-Pappas trade. There’s no question about this. You could give David Bell the 27 Yankees and I don’t think they would win a World Series. It’s not that he isn’t trying but he has no idea how to do it. He basically says let’s keep everything the same and it’ll work out. But when you have a hole in the haul of the ship and headed to the bottom of the ocean, you do not want to stay the course.

Again, kindly name, some of the trades that you think the Reds could’ve made that would’ve helped the situation. I am happy to hear you out. No one will name any because they don’t exist. They are bottoming out because they are young, inexperienced, and now pressing. Not a darn thing was going to make a difference. The question should be: do we have the man at the helm that can pull them back together? Or importantly, did Bob Castellini poke his where it didn’t belong?

Pete, you and I have been on the same page all year. Thank goodness they didn’t make any major trades at the deadline. The young guys ja e all hit the wall, and the injuries are too numerous to overcome. But, they still have all those high end youngsters and money to spend.

If they don’t spend this off season, all bets are off regarding the fanbase.

It tells you a lot when you ask for trades someone may have liked to have seen at the deadline, all you get is crickets. Even with the benefit of hindsight. If there was a good deal out there Krall would’ve made it, I have zero doubt. He didn’t make any deals just so everyone’s life would be miserable? Anyone who believes that needs to not follow the Reds. We weren’t interested in rentals and apparently the cost controlled guys the pricing was too steep. I don’t know what is so difficult about this. Teams this inexperienced do not go to the playoffs. Let alone win World Series. It’s just an indisputable fact. I know it is hard to deal with and I understand that we are all disappointed. I don’t think it is too unreasonable to ask the team to recover before the end of the year and start hitting. – this is where the extension really hurts.

I have bad news for you. The Reds aren’t anywhere near a playoff level team. They have maybe three above average position players and their starting pitching is 24th in fWAR. The only thing the Reds have that is playoff caliber is the BP.

@PeteNo one will ever give you specific trades that would have ameliorated the roster meltdown of injuries and underperformance….because their arent any reasonable ones. It’s easier to point out the losses as Monday morning QB and say see what we had and see who blew it. Theres no reasonable person that can conclude this SP ,bullpen, and offense are playoff caliber and getting a Lucas Giolito or Tommy pham again…..god No …..would have solved that.

It would have taken Blake Snell plus Michael Lorenzen ( who has nt been great since his no hitter) plus Aroldis Chapman plus Sam Moll plus Cody Bellinger plus Jaimer Candelario to have navigated through this debacle and 5/6 are free agents come November 1 and the REds would be starting all over in prospect capital in 2024. that still might have not been enough.

@Pete You speak with certainty that no trades were available for the Reds to reinforce the roster at the deadline. How do you know that?

You put the onus for the post-deadline struggles on the young guys. A smart GM would anticipate this and make a deal(s) at the deadline for someone who has been in the stretch run before to help preclude this from happening. Unless, of course, the owner is someone who “Knows how it is done.”

This is a tired, tired team. Just about the entire starting lineup and starting pitchers are rookies or players not used to playing a 162 game schedule (still not sure what Senzel & Stephenson’s excuse is).

We could play .500 ball the rest of the way and I would still say the season was a success. The fact that 7 rookies are either flourishing or holding their own in the MLB is a very good thing. Unless the bullpen collapses entirely in September, it has been way above average.

We need Fraley (likely), India (unlikely), McLain (unlikely), better starting pitching (unlikely) and an infusion of new rested relief pitchers (possible) to get one of the wild card spots. I hope Nick Krall nabs 2 pitchers and an outfielder from the waiver wire tomorrow.

Getting one would help. Getting more than one would take a minor miracle given the rules as explained yesterday (you get one, you move to the back of the line).

But the rule explanation said “claim” not “award”. If that is correct, is there a single team in MLB that hasn’t made at least 1 waiver claim during the season, whether or not it resulted in an award? Most likely nearly every team is at the “bottom” and rearranged there in the order they would have been anyway.

All the teams are tired at this point.

Well, we know one thing: the people who insisted that the team waited too long to bring up CES, EDLC. Abbott, etc. , saying that the Reds would be way ahead of the pack if they were brought up earlier, were wrong.

No, we weren’t necessarily wrong. The wheels didn’t fall off until after the FO got cold feet and abandoned the effort at the deadline with the team in 1st place in the division and top wildcard seed.

For all the offensive struggles since the deadline, 5 games have been lost in August when a lead was lost on a multi run HR by the opposition in the 7th inning or later. An additional reliever and/or a starter who pitched deep enough to take wear off the pen might have made a huge difference if it resulted in even 3 of those losses instead being wins.

Exactly.

Agree with this ! Very well stated Jim .

I think this season was more of a surprise to management than to the fans. They just were not prepared to contend. The mystery to me is the Marte call-up after everyone else, from Abbott to McLain to Elly to CES was slow-walked? Were they trying to distract attention from their non-moves at the deadline? Crazy season, and as Jim pointed out yesterday, who knows? Five or six in a row and they are back in …

Bingo. Saying no trade at the deadline would have helped is such a broad statement I am not sure how one can be so obtuse. We have no idea what it took to get what we would need etc. But seeing the player that was traded for Lorenzen its clear we couldve done something to help this team and “advance the plan” instead of abandoning it. Alot of Reds fans forget what winning baseball and organizations look like and thats unfortunate. You have to be crafty in the FO and out maneuver. The fans who are impressed w our young players ignore the fact that certified talent was traded for those players. We traded away anything that had any value, what do you expect? Its easy to imagine more experienced GMs getting alot more than what Krall got for those players too. But thats up for debate amd is just my opinion. I absolutely disagree w anyone who says we were right in standing pat, its impossible to know what kind of deals were out there. Fans are trusting this process being executed by Nick Krall and a front office with a track record of losing. They gave David Bell a THIRD contract 1/3 of a year after losing 100 games and you trust them??

Who would that starter that pitches deep into the game every 5th game for 2 months have been? Lorenzen got rocked twice after his no hitter…16 hits and 11 runs in 2 outings and wasnt great last night either. Giolito was the #1 SP rental and he got cut 4 weeks after he was traded with a worse ERA than Luke Weaver. Who is said bullpen arm that throws 2 shutout innings every day from the 4th-6th inning to get to Lucas Sims and Daniel Duarte and fading struggling Diaz and an injured young and tired Farmer and Gibault?

They almost got no hit last night. Where are the lefty bats with Votto old and hurt and Fraley out and Friedl struggling and Benson coming back to earth and CES and Marte unable to hit righties and MClain hurt nad Elly at barrero levels the last month?

Krall is risk averse. He wants to keep his job. If he makes a trade that does not work out, his job will be in jeopardy. Perhaps this is why he does not make any significant deals.

Stop making sense JW. The folks here with the torches and pitchforks out for David Bell will not like that.

I’m sorry but this is just pure speculation.Which reliever should we have gotten and who would you have given up.? Then, was such an proffer even put on the table?Then who’s to say that whoever we got wouldn’t have given up similar runs.Yes, we’ve lost some games due to some bad relief from an otherwise improved BP, but it seems to me that the major problem since the deadline has been too many strikeouts, not enough good at bats, situational hitting and perhaps some lapses in the defense.

How long do we have to wait on the waiver claims? 72 hours? I usually don’t comment on Front Office or about Bell , because enough had been stated about both, but if the FO doesn’t claim a pitcher then I give up.

Not sure if the length is still 72 hours but based on what I’ve read elsewhere the guys were put on waivers Tuesday so that the awards will be settled ahead of 1 Sept making claimed players post season eligible with their new teams.

Also, Sept 1 appears to be a cutdown date for the CBT evaluation; and, teams like the Angels can improve the compensation pick they will get for departing QO free agents (obviously Ohtani in the Angels’ case) if they get enough salary off the books via the waivers.

The process will be finished by tomorrow evening, so claimed players should be eligible for the post season being as they’ll be on rosters by Sept. 1. So by Friday we’ll know for sure. I’ve been pretty optimistic and tried to avoid bashing the FO without good reason, but if there are ML pitchers available when the Reds are on the clock and they don’t grab one or more of them, I think that would be enough for me to check out until next spring.

Wow, what a wasted season. Reds 20 games under 500 hundred, playing the old guys.. oh wait….. wrong year.

This hasn’t been a wasted season the rookies are darn good. Marte is ready, De La Cruz is ready, CES is ready. My gosh how the tied has turned. Reds are still in the playoff hunt and people acting like season is lost.

People wanted the rookies up, now complaining cause they aren’t living up to fans expectations? Reds weren’t even supposed to be good this season. Not sure whether to laugh or shake my head at the doom and gloom.

I understand the season as opposed to last season is a success. I think most of us want the front office to give us a little something here. Not the same old….”we didn’t want to spend money because it will effect our chances next year”.

Won’t have to give anybody up and it was stated that we would spend some money. Now let’s see if that is true.

Kevin -so what you are saying is that you are still on my bandwagon? I’ve been riding it all year but people are jumping left and right. I’m almost on empty with 4 bald tires and it’s limping, but there’s still a light!! We still have a chance to win 28 in a row!!

Lmao exactly

Not sure anyone was saying Marte was ready, and he isn’t.

If he wasn’t ready he wouldn’t of been called up.

Catastrophic collapse! Brought to you by: Bell’s abysmal managerial failure; Krall’s marginal involvement during the pre and trade deadline. Ownership’s unwillingness to commit when the opportunity was there for the taking (First Place, 10 games, over .500 front runner for wild card spot). A team mislead by a manager whose past record clearly demonstrates he’s not suited nor capable of the role. Poorest game time strategy instincts, with nonexistent baseball leadership.If you are not moving forward, you’re falling behind. Do nothing, get nothing. The present was squandered; the future looks no better if Bell remains, coaching staff is not shaken up, Krall does not nothing, and ownership does not commit to winning.

I’m not a Bell fan, but what exactly do you want him to do? The kids are not hitting, and the starters are pitching less innings than the bullpen, and that’s not even because Bell is pulling them too early.

Chris, Look at Bell’s past three-year record and tell me whether or not he’s a winning manager in the majors? The record and results show otherwise, along with questionable assistance from the GM and present ownership.

Just one teeny tiny example: Marte had no business swinging at the first pitch he saw in the 9th inning. It’s 6-0, the starting pitcher is still on the mound and has thrown a ton of pitches. (He in fact walked the next hitter, which I bet he didn’t intend to do.) Now, it’s a real shame Marte somehow doesn’t already know he’s supposed to see at least two pitches in that at-bat, but he obviously doesn’t know it or doesn’t care. Does the manager bear ANY responsibility for that? I think so. If I’m managing, there is no possible way Marte won’t be told to take a pitch, and if he defies the order he’ll be yanked from the game or he’ll be sitting the next day. I don’t think Bell said a word before or after.

That’s one teeny tiny example of what he’s supposed to do but doesn’t do. The kids aren’t hitting, but they can at least force a tired pitcher to throw two strikes. That’s 100% under the hitter’s control. Marte chose not to do it, and I think Bell was probably fine with it, because he doesn’t seem to think it’s his job to tell the players what to do in practically any situations.

I could come up with hundreds of similar examples during the last month, and none of them can be blamed on slumps or injuries. They’re choices players are making, and Bell bears some responsibility for those choices because he’s in charge of the policies.

Boy talk about micromanaging.

Most of the coaching staff was fired last year w the exception of David Bell. That kind of tells you that you’re on the hot seat right? Instead they play 3 good months of baseball and he has a 3 year extension. Everything you need to know about the direction of the organization.

A couple things on last night. For starters, Senzel got robbed of a hit. Yes the throw was a bit high, but it wasn’t a routine play either. That would be akin to charging an error for a guy who dives deep into the hole, gets up and throws the ball a bit wild. Senzel got robbed, and frankly he can’t afford to get robbed.

Secondly, I’ve seen enough of Marte. The kid is not ready, and quite frankly, I’m not sure he is ever going to be an above average defender. I’d rather have India and deal that kid for a need this winter.

Also, can we please move EDLC to the back end of the lineup? I honestly think I’d bat him 9th at this point. Something has to wake the kid up. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a young kid with that much talent look so easy to K. Typical AB for him, is a ball low, called a strike. Then a fastball down the middle that he stares at for a strike, and then a nasty curveball that bounces on home plate that he swings and misses. You could use that as a “how to” when facing EDLC.

India, Fraley, Votto, now McClain. The lineup has no pop and the starting pitchers aren’t going all in if they know they aren’t going to get any run support. We have entered the “meaningless baseball” phase. At least it’s August and not May.

Went from- Wow we have Stephenson hitting 8th, what a lineup!!! to- We have Martini hitting 4th, what a lineup???

Vosler part 2.

Vosler had a nice 8 game run

Martini has an MLB OPS+ of 109. Vosler’s is 87.

Vosler was great after the first week too. That was the point. Small sample size.

Are you really arguing for Martini?? Surely not.

Im outta the weeds.

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